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cm
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Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 159
Location: Minnesota or Wisconsin
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 Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: Careful there.... |
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There might be some nice chromium salts in that mess.
[Can't find Mr Yuk emoticon]
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ersatzlos
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Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 86
Location: Somewhere
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Good point cm. One would have to be careful if the bleach made was used for disinfecting drinking water. I'll look into it. I may go for the titanium electrodes. Theyre not that expensive. |
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WNC Observer
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Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 129
Location: Western North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Just to keep things in historical perspective:
Salt is one of the oldest trade commodities in the world. People have been making it (solar power!), transporting it long distances, and exchanging it for other good for all of recorded human history, and probably for a good bit before that. It is highly unlikely that peak oil or anything short of total extinction will put an end to that.
Yes, by all means stock up enough to tide yourself over for a couple of years or so. I think most people can take it for granted though that people living near the oceans will start figuring out how to make salt again, and that they will trade it for other things they need, and it will make its way into the interior. |
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TechGuy
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Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ersatzlos wrote: |
Techguy, re: your comment about bubbling chlorine into the caustic, these guys below are saying its more dangerous but Im not exactly sure why (maybe too exothermic?).. |
I don't think you have a problem if you use a weak caustic solution. I suspect that you would probably only run into issues with very heavy concentrations of caustic. You're probably better off using a diluted solution since rarely do you need pure bleach. Bleach is always used diluted anyway. As a side note, you can produce a solution of HydroChloric Acid (HCL) and Hypochlorous Acid (HOCL) by bubbling both Hydrogen and chlorine into distilled water. This could be useful in the process of making cellophane (Pulp + NAOH -> Viscose + HCL -> Cellophane), or perhaps other ordinary uses.
I would recommend running the reaction in a well vented or open area since chlorine gas is extremely poisonous. Hydrogen production should not be too much of an issue, unless you're trying to capture it. Hydrogen is extremely light and will very quickly dispate, unless you try to store/capture it in a container.
| ersatzlos wrote: |
I think you need to keep things below 40Celsius to prevent sodium chlorate.What do you think Techguy? |
Thats true about the temperature. The temperture needs to be regulated below 40C, which is pretty easy to do.
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My anode was just eaten up in the process and turned the solution a slimy greenish-black colour. You need a good anode like what thyre using in those swimming pool electrolyzers. I think I will retry it with a 316 ss anode next (I like the KISS principle... keep it simple Smith!).
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I think I forgot to mention this, but table salt contains additives to prevent it from caking (in high humidity). You will need to use a solution containing pure salt instead of ordinary table salt. I believe "Kosher salt" doesn't contain any additives. Another alternative is probably ordinary rock salt. Part of the slime green is probably caused by the additives. Also as some one suggested, that solution probably contains chromium leached from the SS. I wouldn't even touch it since some chromium poisons can be absorbed through the skin. I think we'll need to come up with a test for chromium in our bleach to sure its safe for house-hold use.
BTW: I think you run into the same problem using SS 316 if you try to make Bleach directly. Try using a porous membrane to seperate the electrodes to see if you can make caustic with out erosion of the electrodes. If you want to try to making bleach directly your better off just buying the replacement pool generator electrodes. The titinium electrodes are also coated with a metal oxide to prevent damage. I think the process to coat them isn't going to be very simple.
As far as stocking up on salt, you can probably purchase 50/25 pound bags of salt used for water softners. This would probably be an appropriate source of salt for Bleach/Caustic production. Although I am not sure I would use this salt for human (or animal) consuption. I would imagine bakeries buy salt in bulk (that probably dont have additives either). Perhaps SysCo or some other resturant/bakery distributer sells bulk salt for cooking. Of course if you use a food supply distributor you could probably also stock up on other food related supplies to save on delivery costs.
(Warning Off-Topic: Sorry)
One idea I would like to experiment is long term storage of dry food goods, such as sugar, grains (ground & non-ground), spices, etc. What I had in mind was to weld up some air tight metal containers. Fill them up with goods, add some water/oxygen absorbents. Then use a vacuum pump to suck most of the air out and back fill with dry nitrogen (with +10 psi aka 14.7+10psi). There should be too little water for microbes, and the lack of oxygen should prevent decay. I could use a pressure gauge to measure the pressure periodically and refill with more dry nitrogen when the pressure dropped too low. The pressurized nitrogen would prevent oxygen from slow leaking in to the containers. |
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ersatzlos
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Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 86
Location: Somewhere
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Techguy, thanks for your response.
| Quote: | | I think I forgot to mention this, but table salt contains additives to prevent it from caking (in high humidity). You will need to use a solution containing pure salt instead of ordinary table salt. I believe "Kosher salt" doesn't contain any additives. Another alternative is probably ordinary rock salt. Part of the slime green is probably caused by the additives. Also as some one suggested, that solution probably contains chromium leached from the SS. I wouldn't even touch it since some chromium poisons can be absorbed through the skin. I think we'll need to come up with a test for chromium in our bleach to sure its safe for house-hold use. |
I actually used sea salt in my concoction, but I'm pretty sure the green colour was from the Chromium. Certain Chromic acid solutions can be green....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromic_acid
Anyway I think cm and you have convinced me to stay away from the stainless steel electrode (until I get time to make chromic acid, of course  )
| Quote: | (Warning Off-Topic: Sorry)
One idea I would like to experiment is long term storage of dry food goods, such as sugar, grains (ground & non-ground), spices, etc. What I had in mind was to weld up some air tight metal containers. Fill them up with goods, add some water/oxygen absorbents. Then use a vacuum pump to suck most of the air out and back fill with dry nitrogen (with +10 psi aka 14.7+10psi). There should be too little water for microbes, and the lack of oxygen should prevent decay. I could use a pressure gauge to measure the pressure periodically and refill with more dry nitrogen when the pressure dropped too low. The pressurized nitrogen would prevent oxygen from slow leaking in to the containers. |
Yes, good idea. I was thinking of this also, but first I have to finish off my bleach generator and my bicycle powered DC generator project. So much to do, so little time.  |
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Durandal
Site Admin
Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 291
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| ersatzlos wrote: | | Yes, good idea. I was thinking of this also, but first I have to finish off my bleach generator and my bicycle powered DC generator project. So much to do, so little time. |
When you get your bicycle powered DC generator working, take pics and post them. I had tried to make one out of wood and a car alternator previously, using a normal bike so you could use the bike AS a bike, but it was a failure. I'll have to try again.  |
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TechGuy
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Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Durandal wrote: | | ersatzlos wrote: | | Yes, good idea. I was thinking of this also, but first I have to finish off my bleach generator and my bicycle powered DC generator project. So much to do, so little time. |
When you get your bicycle powered DC generator working, take pics and post them. I had tried to make one out of wood and a car alternator previously, using a normal bike so you could use the bike AS a bike, but it was a failure. I'll have to try again. |
What is the bike for? You probably can only sustainably produce probably between 100 and 200 watts. Also remember that food is a very expensive fuel to burn. If you wish we can start a thread on small steam engines or using gasifiers for using solid fuels in Internal Combusion Engines. |
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ersatzlos
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Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 86
Location: Somewhere
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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The bike project was one of the first things I could think of to generate some stealth power (ie. without combusting fuel and making smoke). I'm stuck for now in the middle of suburbia and really wish I had homestead land and knowledge like Airdales, but for now, I am where I am.
I totally agree with your comments about the low power output but it would still be useful for small applications , like generating bleach and even powering a small TV and DVD player (hey, movies are one of my guilty pleasures )
For my situation, I think your small steam generation idea is intriguing for longer term power solutions. Please start a thread somewhere on the site. I'll find it! |
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ersatzlos
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Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 86
Location: Somewhere
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | When you get your bicycle powered DC generator working, take pics and post them. I had tried to make one out of wood and a car alternator previously, using a normal bike so you could use the bike AS a bike, but it was a failure. I'll have to try again. |
Sure, late September most likely. |
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ersatzlos
Regular
Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 86
Location: Somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Hey, they stole my idea!
http://www.msrcorp.com/filters/miox.asp
ER
P.S. I just read you can also use a dilute bleach solution on just harvested pumpkins to keep them in storage for a longer period of time. |
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HurninnaGrito
newbie
Joined: 17 Jul 2010
Posts: 5
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:36 pm Post subject: Salt Bleach |
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Anyone use it? Specifically flushing engines? Have you been able to do a visual before/after to see the results?
Looking to run it through an I/O to break up any salt buildup. Thanks. |
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